Credits and Acknowledgements +
Editor's Introduction +
Explanatory Notes +
Standard Divine Abilities +
Dungeon Mastering Divine Beings +
Clerics and Deities +
Mortality and Immortality +
Divine Ascension +
American Indian Mythos + 15
Arthurian Heroes + 117
Babylonian Mythos + 10
Celtic Mythos + 19
Central American Mythos + 13
Chinese Mythos + 24
Cthulhu Mythos + 17
Egyptian Mythos + 24
Finnish Mythos + 23
Greek Mythos + 40
Indian Mythos + 18
Japanese Mythos + 13
Melnibonéan Mythos + 41
Nehwon Mythos + 37
Nonhuman's Deities + 18
Norse Mythos + 39
Sumerian Mythos + 8
Appendix 1: The Known Planes of Existence
Appendix 2: Temple Trappings -
Appendix 3: Clerical Quick Reference Chart -
Appendix 4: Further Reference -
Index to Proper Names -
Question: In GODS,
DEMI-GODS AND HEROES it says
that a forty-plus level character is ridiculous. In our game we
have two characters that are at one thousand-plus level. This
happened in ďArmageddon,Ēa conflict between the gods and
the characters. Of course, the characters won. What do you
think about that?
Answer: Not much.
I donít know whether to
or . I will
repeat: A forty-plus-level character is ridiculous. We feel that you must
advance one level at a time, not a whole bunch at once. I donít
understand how or what happened or even if all the gods were in this
battle, but if you enjoy playing this way, feel free to do so. I donít want
to spoil your fun.
Question: First, my
question is in two parts;
are the stats in the present Gods, Demi-Gods and Heroes correct for AD&D,
and since there are no large-scale battle rules in the DMG, are the rules in Swords and Spells or Chainmail the official army rules?
If not, what rules are recommended?
Answer: Gods, Demi-Gods
and Heroes was written for OD&D.
There is a revised edition being written right now by Jim Ward && Rob Kuntz.
This book will be for play with AD&D. There are no official rules for army
battles in AD&D yet. We find that Chainmail works pretty well when we
want to have armies fight each other. We are presently considering
something along these lines, but it is in the beginning stages.
(Update: See DEITIES & DEMIGODS)
(Update: See BATTLESYSTEM).
Originally posted by Eternalknight
Did you ever think of doing
much on Australian Aboriginie mythology?
It seems to be a greatly untapped resource in RPG's.
while i am much impressed with the Australian Aboriginies, and also with the Bushmen of Africs, I never contemplated adding them to the mix simply because their cultures are so far from those used as bases for the milieux of Oerth adventuring.
The amount of work necessary to establish the groundwork for play therein would be rather daunting, bith for the author and the DM utilizing the material.
It would be a simpler matter to manage it for the LA game system, but for D&D I can foresee all manner of lengthy additions to the rules being necessary.
BTW, by D&D, I am speaking broadly, and mean AD&D as well.
Originally posted by Geoffrey
Gary, what is your opinion on using the "real world" of the Middle Ages as a campaign setting for A/D&D or for Lejendary Adventure? Of course, the setting wouldn't be completely real since there would be monsters, spells, and magic items. But there would be Catholicism, England, the Crusades, and all the rest.
Do you think this would be
a fun and/or a workable setting for A/D&D or LA?
My considered opinion is that such a setting would require a special set of rules, and neither A/D&D nor the LA game are designed to fit something that is based on actual history.
Using such a setting also
treads close to the edge in regards religion as practiced today--mainly
Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam.
Most magic would then perforce be Satanic in nature, or at best theurgy in the true sense of the term--forced from the divine.
the setting would certainly make for some interesting campaign play, but in general I doubt the commercial viability.
Originally Posted by mossfoot
Actually, come to think of it, I DO have a question... in your years of gaming have you ever "converted" people to gaming who otherwise wouldn't have, or have you simply been fortunate enough to always be around gamer types?
You see, back in Vancouver, I didn't have a gaming group, so I corrupte... I mean converted my girlfriend, and then her girlfriends so that I ended up GMing a group of 5 university girls (yeah, I know, gamer's fantasy come true ) But the truth is, they ALL had a standoffish, "I dunno" attitude towards gaming.
It took some time to convert them, but now they're hooked... only problem is they love their characters so much I can't convince them to start a new campaign with new characters!
My work has made untold converts
to the gaming hobby, but I assume you mean have I personally made a direct
convert by persuasion and the like.
The answer is, but of course!
The most notable is James
I was in a local newspaper, magazine, and paperback book shop when I noticed a chap browsing the SF and fantasy titles.
I brazenly spoke to him, suggesting that if he enjoyed such adventure reading he should visit out gaming club that featured swords & sorcery.
He did, and the rest is history.
I have never personally succeeded
converting a female to the hobby, including all three of my daughters.
They played and enjoyed it for some weeks or months, but lost interest thereafter.
Originally Posted by BOZ
no... it's supposed to be "roll initiative and die!"
oh, wait, either way is fine.
Jim Ward's PC usual cry to opponents: "Surrender AND die!"
Originally Posted by palleomortis
Hey, thanx all. I didn't know this kinda stuff existed. Nice. Where did you say this guy lived?
If by "this guy" you mean Jim Ward, that's easy. Jim lives in the county seat of Walwrth County, Elkhorn. That's about eight miles from Lake Geneva. Do a websearch for the "Beast of Bray Road" for some interesting reading about the area.
Originally Posted by taliesin15
Let me echo all the sentiments prevalent in these threads thanking you for your work in creating D&D!
Here's a question that might be a bit controversial: what do you think of D&D campaigns using deities worshipped in the contemporary "real" world? In early D&D publications there are references to saints (Cuthbert's mace, I believe?) and especially when Deities and Demigods came out, my friends and I all thought that an Arthurian flavored milieu would have to at least have some Christian (also pagan, naturally) elements to it. One of my D&D playing buddies made a joke about "Jesus Christ, Major Deity, 400 hit points, Lawful Good," etc. And of course there are some Oriental pantheons in DEities and Demigods. And in the DMG you have references to Arab/Muslim civilizations; for that matter, there's the whole thing about Assasins coming from the Arab world. Of course all that's been synthesized greatly in the fantasy literature. And yet, it wouldn't seem that hard to do to create a milieu where people worship Jesus, Mohammed, and so on.
Saint is not a term that is exclusive to the Christian religion, and St. Cuthbert was more of a joke than otherwise.
Consider the advicacy of pounding sense into someone's head by dint of blows from a club.
I do not advocate any use
of actual religion in an RPG.
Any references I have made to Arab-like civizilations do not include any hint of Islam in them.
the same holds for Judaism and Christianity.
As a matter of fact, I did not write Deities and Demigods, nor did I use it in my campaign.
Originally Posted by fusangite
Once again, Gary, I see intentionality where it might not have been. I have been assuming that you based a chunk of the cleric class's spell list on the miracles performed by St. Cuthbert in Bede's Life of Saint Cuthbert. The Create Water, Flame Strike spells and various other seemed to indicate you were, at some point, deriving the cleric spell list from actual medieval miracles. This I'm very glad to hear; people focus on the Fiend Folio as the mistaken text in AD&D but I have to say that Deities and Demigods is the book that ultimately caused me to take a long sabbatical from AD&D in the mid-80s.
No, the cleric spells were all made up from my imagination as things fitting for that class.
The Deities and Demigods book had plenty of flaws, but some make believe deities are generally necessary for a FRPG campaign methinks.
Originally Posted by Wolv0rine
And for the first time in my 34 years (and with a hearty belly-laugh) I glimpse how the nutjobs of the 80's could have seen it all as a weird cult. I can just see you sitting on the porch with a handful of dice, waving whoever over. "Come on over and play. All are welcome, all are welcome."
Even if it were a cult, at least we're too cool to pass around kool-aid.
Well, as a matter of fact I did recruit James M. Ward to RPGing by button-holing him in the local magazine and paperback book shop here when I saw him checking out fantasy and SF titles. He gave me a rather strange look but did indeed come over to see about the game I had extolled to him...OD&D back in 74 'IIRR.
Originally Posted by Fifth Element
What is your favourite real-world mythology? I mean in the sense of Greek, Norse, etc.
As a follow-up, what mythology lends itself best as inspiration for D&D?
Egyptian mythology for its plethora of deities and its underworld. Next comes Hindic for its array of strange deities and the many stories.
I designed D&D with little regard for mythology; more for folklore, legend, and authored fiction.
Originally Posted by Mystaros
There's another series, the "Penguin Historical Atlas of..." series, which is also quite good. So far they've done Ancient Civilizations, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, Medieval World, Vikings, Russia, British Empire, North America... even the dinosaurs! Cool stuff, sometimes verging on the "generational" scheme you mention, though the McEvedy books are better for that perspective.
There goes more of my hard-earned coin.
I have the older Penguin historical atlases but the ancient civs ones I have not seen. I must get several of those you mentioned!
Originally Posted by Thulcondar
I find that particularly fascinating (and yet another indicator of just how far you were willing to go to find source material).
Although it also points out how far Mme. Blavatsky was willing to go for source material, inasmuch as the Deva is a Hindu figure.
I have been toying with the
idea of putting together some sort of Angelic heirarchy to counter the
Diabolic and Demonic heirarchies.
Since we have arch-devils, why not arch-angels? Major Devils and Seraphim.
Demon Princes and Saints...
The details are unimportant, but you get the idea...
And of course the "named" Infernal figures would have their own counterparts.
The only thing that has stumped
me thusfar is in individualizing them sufficiently.
Perhaps I am a creature of the mythologies to which I am accustomed, but the angelic hosts always seemed so... homogenous.
Valkyries could work for one of the other alignments (NG, mayhap, although for those who know their true nature according to the Norse lore they are far from beneficient beings!), but I find myself at something of a stumbling block.
And for the non-good/evil minions... I would ache for something more rooted in mythology than Modrons.
Any thoughts as to a possible expansion of the demon/devil/daemon idea into the realms of Good, beyond the (to my mind, rather limited) Deva/Plantar/Solar?
As always, my thanks in advance.
The short answer is that as a Christian I have stayed away from Judeo-Christian theology.
Thus the use of Theophysical in Hindu spirit entities.
<didn't Gary convert to
Christianity c. 1985?>
Originally Posted by JamesM
Did you ever consider using a vague monotheism à la The Lord of the Rings in AD&D rather than polytheism? I'm assuming not, given things you've said in the past about angels vs. devas, etc. I ask primarily because I've always found the medieval trappings of the game somewhat at odds with its pulp polytheism.
By no means!
As a Christian, playing with actual religion is quite beyond the pale.
Secondarily, the medieval-Renaissance
technology has nothing to do with the supernatural aspects influencing
the fantasy milieu.
It is also noteworthy that the medieval world had a plethora of saints && demons as might a mythological pantheon.
Originally Posted by JamesM
To clarify, in case it wasn't clear, I didn't mean to suggest that you might have included Christianity in AD&D.
It was always obvious you intended the game to be a fantasy and not a historical simulation.
However, Professor Tolkien, a devout man himself, took the monotheism route for Middle Earth.
It seems a very unusual one for fantasy, though I've never been sure why.
I suggest that Tolkien rather than monotheism had no religion in Middle Earth.
There were no priests, no religious services, no formal prayers
Originally Posted by JamesM
Would you mind expanding on this slightly?
Are you simply saying that D&D's supernatural trappings were a separate creative choice from the decision to include medieval technology rather than one being the outgrowth of the other?
The level of technology need
not be tied to social organization, culture, political system or degree
of working magic.
After all, in a fantasy world the paramaters are set by the game system that it is to control its laws and the one designing it.
Originally Posted by JamesM
True enough, although I've never really viewed saints or demons as being even the functional equivalents of polytheistic deities.
There is a parallel of sorts to be drawn there,
however, especially in regards to the netherrealms' heirarchy.
the links for these pantheons are checked, and point to the correct page:
<359 + 117>
<399 : 10pp at begin, 20 pantheon pages, 10 pp at end>
<117 : 10pp at begin, 20 pantheon pages, 10 pp at end>
<size of spiral ring notebooks, for taking notes (spell, personality, ea.) when reading the myths>
<remember, cite all sources. use a system for your citations (a key), incl. your key at begin or end>
<2 citation cases>
<1: main source>
<2: other sources>
<ex. Dictionary of Mythology is my main source>
<Dictionary of Mythology, J.A. Coleman, Capella, ISBN 978-1-84193-424-2>
<since this is my main source, i just incl. the page numbers in the left hand column>
<eg. 123, not DM.123><on the actual DDG pages, on the spell and personality tables, in the citation columns, it would appear : DM.123>
<Le Morte d'Arthur, Sir Thomas Mallory, Collector's Library Editions, ISBN 978 1 904633 976>
<eg. LMA.123><on the actual DDG pages, on the spell and personality tables, in the citation columns, it would appear : LM.123>
<make a 3rd citation case, for primary sources?>
<for example, instead of LMA.123, it would be LMA.cle.123, something like that>
<what is important is a systematic and coordinated
approach to research>
<after the dictionary of mythology, pantheon.org>
<then, do the primary sources for each pantheon>