The Multi-Classed Character

The game assumes that only non- or semi-human characters can be multi-classed,
and only certain class combinations are possible,
depending on the race of the character.
Although these are listed in the section dealing with each race of character,
multi-class character possibilities are also shown below in order to aid in selection of your character's class or multi-class.
Cleric combinations (with fighter types) may use edged weapons.

Cleric/Fighter: This combination is strong in defensive and revitalization
capabilities, plus the offensive missile and melee combat power of the
fighter. Hit points average will be good. Half-elves and half-orcs may be
cleric/fighters.

<START: 48 (half-elf), 24(half-orc)>
<Crusader>

SA: Dwarven clerics || fighter/clerics who have attained max. level in the cleric class may be able to make some permanent magic items via the cleric class.

<F3/C3: XP 315 (T1-4.59)>

Cleric/Fighter/Magic-user: One of the best of the multi-class options, this
gives good offensive and defensive spell capability plus the fighter's
melee combat strength. Half-elves may be cleric/fighter/magic-users.

SA: Humans cannot be Cleric/Fighter/Magic-Users, or any other multi-class combination, for that matter!

<START: 48 (half-elf)>
<Paragon>

<Cleric/Fighter/Thief>
<Preacher>

Cleric/Ranger: See cleric/fighter above. This combination is potent in outdoor
situations as well. Half-elves may be cleric/rangers.

<START: 48 (half-elf)>
<START: 600 (elf)>
<C4/R4: 468 XP (T3, area 228a)>
<Eco-terrorist>

Cleric/Magic-user: This combination gives the character a great variety
and selection of spells, as well as the use of armor and more weapons.
HP are somewhat better than those of the magic-user class alone.
Half-elves may be cleric/magic-users.

<START: 48 (half-elf)>
<START: 600 (elf)>
<Adeptus>

SA: Elven cleric/magic-users who have attained max. level in the cleric class may be able to make some permanent magic items via the cleric class.

<Cleric/Magic-user/Thief>
<Theocrat>

<Cleric/lllusionist>
<Pulpitationist>

Cleric/Thief: This is a combination of classes which gives both defensive
and stealth potential. Hit points are improved with regard to the thief class
only. As with all thief class combinations, however, any functions as a thief
are under the restrictions of that class with regard to armor, i.e. only
leather armor and no shield. Half-orcs may be cleric/thieves.

<START: 28 (half-orc)>
<Evangelist>

Cleric/Assassin: Seemingly strange, this combination is quite
understandable when the race which can operate in these two classes at
the same time is noted. The combination gives great potential in defensive
and stealth situations and very powerful assassination attack capabilities.
Hit points are good because of clerical hit dice. Half-orcs may be clerical
assassins.

<START: 28 (half-orc)>
<Fanatic>
<suggestion: limit multi-classed assassins to only those races with a disposition towards evil -- duergar, drow, svirfneblin<?>, half-orcs, half-drow - D103.16>

<Druid/Fighter>
<Warden>
<wild elves (NPCs only) may be druid/fighters - D103.16>

<Druid/Ranger>
<Guardian>

<Druid/Magic-user>
<Ecologist>

<Druid/Thief>
<Activist>

Fighter/Magic-user:

Obviously, this combination allows excellent armor protection, the use of weaponry, and spells.
HP are good on the average (51/2 + 21/2 = 8 + 2 = 4 HP per double-classed level).
Elves && half-elves may be fighter/magic-users.

<START: elf (180), half-elf (46)>
<UA: Elves (dark, high/gray, valley/wood) && half-elves (dark, high/gray, valley/wood) may be fighter/magic-users.>
<Armor>
<F5/MU4: 651 XP (T3, area 228a)>
<Spellblade>

<Fighter/Magic-user/Thief>
<Shadow>

Fighter/lllusionist: See Fighter/Magic-user above. Gnomes may be
fighter/illusionists.

<START: gnome (124)>
<Director>

Fighter/Thief: By combining these two classes -- the armor, weapons, and
combat capabilities of the fighter with the stealth and other abilities of the
thief - a very effective character is created, even though thieving
functions restrict the character to leather armor and no shield. Hit points
are good. Dwarves, elves, gnomes, half-elves, halflings, and half-orcs may
be fighter/thieves.

<START: dwarf (93), elf (160), gnome (100), half-elf (46), halfling (48), half-orc (28)>
<Skirmisher>

<Fighter/Assassin>
<Sniper>
<suggestion: limit multi-classed assassins to only those races with a disposition towards evil -- duergar, drow, svirfneblin<?>, half-orcs, half-drow - D103.16>
<4/4: 868 XP>
<7/7: 4924 XP (T3, area 336)>

<Ranger/Magic-user>
<Green Wizard>

<Magic-user/Thief>
<Spellfilcher>

<Magic-user/Assassin>
<Spellslayer>
<"Frank isn't crazy about non-dark elf magic-user assassins." - D103.16>

<lllusionist/Thief>
<Swindler>

<lllusionist/Assassin>
<Liar>
<suggestion: limit multi-classed assassins to only those races with a disposition towards evil -- duergar, drow, svirfneblin<?>, half-orcs, half-drow - D103.16>
 
 

All about the druid/ranger
A classy explanation, better late than never
by Frank Mentzer

Editor's introduction
"Both elven and half-elven characters can
be druid/rangers, or can be triple-classed as
druid/ranger/magic-users." <note: not according to Dragon 103, for druid/ranger/magic-users>
Little did we realize the uproar that
would follow the publication of that single
sentence in issue #96, near the end of Gary
Gygax's article on "New jobs for demihumans". <All race/class combinations are listed here.>
" As scores of people have pointed
out to us since then, the job of druid/ranger
is impossible to qualify for under the existing
AD&D® game rules.

It quickly became obvious that an explanation
was in order even if it had to be
after the fact. This Eager-to-Please Editor
imposed upon Frank Mentzer to prepare an
essay that would describe how and why this
"illegal" class combination could -- and
should -- be possible. Frank was more than
happy to comply, and Gary also gave this
piece of writing his stamp of approval --
tacking on the final paragraph which appears
here and leaving the remainder virtually
unchanged. So here, without further
delay is the rest of the story.

Though the druid/ranger is permitted in
the AD&D® game rules, an alignment
conflict is obviously present. But the combination
is equally obviously logical; both
classes are woodland-oriented. Then again,
why should high-level rangers gain druid
spells, even when their alignments are
radically different from those of the deities
who grant such spells?

First, allow this multi-class combination
only for characters of the Neutral Good
alignment. For a rationale, consider the
behavior and philosophy of each class in the
context of the campaign.

Druids, on the whole, minimize their
association with "civilization," usually
shunning the settlements of humans and
humanoids for their beloved wilderness. To
the truly Neutral druid,  "each thing exists
as a part of the whole, one as a check or
balance to the other, with life necessary for
death, happiness for suffering, good for evil,
order for chaos, and vice versa." (See
DMG, page 23.) The druid lovingly tends
the balance of all things, epitomized by
Nature herself, while accepting the undeniable
fact that Nature is sometimes cruel --
survival of the fittest, and all that.
The actions and beliefs of a druid in the
game are "good" -- not in the alignment
sense, but in the common meaning of "beneficial."
Strictly within the druid's milieu,
the druid considers his or her actions as
"good" (more precisely, "best") for all
things everywhere.

A ranger, on the other hand, is required
to have a Good moral alignment: "Each
creature is entitled to life, relative freedom,
and the prospect of happiness. Cruelty and
suffering are undesirable." (Again see
DMG, page 23.) This moral perspective of
the ranger, who deals with "civilized" areas
much more often than the druid, is closely

tied to relationships, and to the welfare of
other beings. In relation to Nature herself,
the ranger's outlook is very neutral-oriented.

The balance of Nature is a
"good" thing (lower-case "g," as opposed
to "Good" alignment). The primary divergence
between the ranger and druid philosophies
is in their attitude toward suffering
individuals: The ranger will always try to
help, while the druid might look on, believing
that even suffering has its place and
purpose.

The NG ranger may thus be
considered nearly true Neutral when functioning
in the realm of Nature. PC
druid/rangers are thus permitted,
if of that alignment. Druids and Neutral
Good rangers can be quite friendly toward
one another -- the druid considering the
ranger as a "soul nearly saved," and vice
versa.

As to rangers of other alignments --
CG and LG -- one can
only speculate as to the reasons why they
are granted druid spells. The druid deity (or
deities) might consider any ranger's respect
for and good treatment of the realm of
Nature as deserving of such boons. If so,
the thoughtful ranger should realize that his
or her actions in variance to the true Neutral
ways will be balanced, in the long run,
by someone else's converse actions -- perhaps
those of the local druid, "repairing the
damage" caused by excessive Law, Chaos,
or Good.

Moral extremists -- those rangers who
are notably and constantly (i.e. excessively,
to the druid) Lawful or Chaotic -- might be
denied spells by the DM, having strayed too
far (again, from the druidical perspective)
from the balance of all things. If the DM
excludes rangers of certain extreme alignments
from spell acquisition, the players
should first be informed of this, whether
their rangers are of low or high level.

As a final note, research into the ways of
ancient druids can help flesh out the class
and its campaign activities. Druid beliefs
were historically anchored in a gnostic
monotheism, the worship of a Great Mother
of All (known by different names in different
times and places). Druidism evolved
from an early matriarchal stage, limiting
the priesthood to females only (and hence
giving rise to the woodland females, dryads
et al.), to the later more open stage, allowing
males. Traces of druidism were found as
late as 1874, in Russia. Acorns and oak
leaves are still used in wreaths and harvest
decorations, and many towns hold seasonal
ceremonies at great oak trees. To some
extent, the remnants of the ancient religion
persist to this very day.

Of course, AD&D gaming seeks only to
base its fantasy upon historical actualities,
and it in no sense suggests reality or the recreation
of supposed pagan practices. A
sound knowledge of history, however, and
an understanding of ancient and medieval
culture, will certainly enhance the enjoyment
of a campaign and enable the DM to
add much to the milieu.
 

Question: How do racial limits apply to multi-classed characters?

Answer: The same way they apply to everybody else: absolutely.
XP are always divided evenly between all the pro-
fessions of a multi-classed character, even if the character is
not able to attain a higher level in one or more of those classes
because of race. A half-orc C/A could become a
high-level assassin, but would never achieve clerical expertise
of higher than 4th level. A single-classed assassin needs 6,000
experience points to rise from 4th to 5th level, but this half-orc
actually has to earn 12,000 experience points to get credit for
5th level, because half of everything he gets must go toward
paying his dues to the cleric class. (Only a half-orc can be smart
enough to be an assassin and still dumb enough to want to be a
cleric at the same time.)
*
*
*


CHARACTER RACE TABLE III.: MULTI-CLASSED CHARACTER OPTIONS
Race CF CR CM CI CT CA DF DR DM DT FM FI FT FA RM RT MT MA IT IA CFM CFT CMT FMT
DWARF, Gray X - - - X X - - - - - - X X - - - - - - - - - -
    Hill X - - - - - - - - - - - X - - - - - - - - - - -
    Mountain X - - - - - - - - - - - X - - - - - - - - - - -
ELF, Dark X X X - X X - - - - X - X X X X X X - - X X X X
    Gray/High X X X - - X X X X X X - X X X X X X - - X X X X
    Valley/Wood X X X - - X X X X X X - X X X X X X - - X X X X
    Wild - - - - - - - - - - - - X - - - - - - - - - - -
GNOME, Deep X - - X - X - - - - - X X X - - - - X X - - - -
    Surface X - - X - - - - - - - X X - - - - - X - - - - -
HALFLING, All X - - - - - X - - X - - X - - - - - - - - - - -
HALF-ORC X - - - - X - - - - - - X X - - - - - - - - - -

    Column headings are abbreviations for all possible multi-class combinations of PCs: CF = cleric/fighter, IT = illusionist/thief, etc.
    An "x" under a column heading indicates that this combination is possible for a character of the race in question.

    A half-elf uses the entry for the strain of elf from which the character is described.

    Note that this table enumerates all the possible class combinations for PCs in the game, but does not imply that they must all be permissible.
    Some of these combinations may be disallowed by the DM in his or her campaign.


General Karthos wrote:
Hi Gary, I'm not sure if I thanked you last time for the help with the large-sized human. If I didn't thank you. If I did, thank you again. And now I have another debate-related question.

If a fighter/thief attacks from behind with intent to backstab, must he use his thief Thac0 to make a backstabbing attack?

Those who say he must, say he must because backstabbing is a thief ability, so only thief Thac0 should be used to calculate chances of a hit, citing the Cleric 5/Magic-user 5 who can only cast magic-user spells as a 5th level magic-user because spell-casting is a magic-user only ability.

Then there are those (like myself) who say that fighter Thac0 can be used. A similarity I'd draw would be that a thief making a save to avoid a trap he sprung when trying to disarm it would use the most favorable save, even if it wasn't thief related. Attacking from behind is not a thief-only ability, just the backstab multiplier, (and the +4 bonus from behind), which do go up slower, as they are based only on thief level.

Finally, I thought that Thac0 was something where you ALWAYS use the best Thac0 when making an attack as a multi-class character.

Of course, I could be wrong, so I put it before you, to "settle the debate."


Welsome, of course:)

As backstab and its bonus damage is a Thief ability, the thief PC must use his THAC0 number to determine the success of the attack, indeed.
If the target is unsuspecting, then there is a bonus to the roll, a +4 IIRR.

I was playing a thief in a OAD&D game run on the tabletop by my son, Ernie.
It was a large multi-player miniatures-based one where a number of PCs and their associates were attempting to gain a potent artifact.
I learned that a nighthag PC had the item, attempted a backstab, and rolled a 1.
Needless to say, that was the end of my character...

Cheers,
Gary

Fighter/Thief Note


Fighter/Assassin: This combination gives excellent missile and melee
combat ability, plus assassination and stealth potential. Hit points are
good. Half-orcs may be fighter/assassins.

Fighter/Magic-user/Thief: Combat, spell, and stealth capability
given to the character who opts this multi-class combination. This is a very
powerful mix. Hit points are good (5% + 2% + 3% = 11% + 3 = 4) on
the average. Elves and half-elves may be fighter/magic-user/thieves.

Magic-user/Thief: This combination does not offer all of the options open
to a fighter/magic-user/thief, but advancement is usually more rapid.
Average hit points are fair, i.e. 3 per level. Elves and half-elves may be
magic-user/thieves.

Illusionist/Thief: See Magic-User/Thief above.
Gnomes may be illusionist/thieves.
 

Optional Rule: Some GMs limit elven and half-elven fighter/
magic-users and fighter/magic user/clerics in respect of the
armour they may wear while casting spells. If this optional rule
is in play, such a character may only cast arcane spells if unarmoured--
unless they are wearing elfin chain. The character may still
cast divine spells regardless of the armour he or she
is wearing. (This rule assumes that elfin chain is specially designed
to allow fighter/magic-users to wear it.)
- OSRIC
 

Q: What multiclassed options
open to thief-acrobats?

A: Thief-acrobats are treated as thieves for
determining what multiclass combinations
are available.
(139.68)

Q: Can assassins opt to become thiefacrobats
as multi- or dual-classed
PCS?

A: No, they cannot. A subclass cannot be
combined with another subclass.
(139.68)

Q: Are half-orcs the only race that can
become cleric/thieves?

A: If you are using just the Players Handbook,
this is indeed the case. If you are
using Unearthed Arcana, the following
races can become cleric/thieves: gray
dwarves; dark, gray, high, valley, and
wood elves; deep and surface gnomes; all
types of halflings; and half-orcs. Note that
an expanded table of allowable multiclassed
options was published in issue
#103 of DRAGON Magazine, on page 49.
(139.68)

Q: Are druid/illusionists possible in
the AD&D game? There are druid/
magic-users.

A: No. A subclass is not allowed in a multiclassed
combination just because the main
class is. In the case of the illusionist class,
only the gnome races can be multiclassed
illusionists of any sort because these races
have a predisposition toward the illusionist
profession. Elves, who can be druid/magicusers,
can?t become illusionists at all.
(139.68)

Q: Which races can become magicuser/
assassins?

A: Dark, gray, high, valley, and wood elves
may become magic-user/assassins.
(139.68)

Q: Can a multiclassed fighter/thief
use his specialization bonuses in a
back-stab attempt?
A: No. Only single-classed fighters may
specialize (see ?Arcana update, part 1?
in DRAGON issue #103, page 113).
(139.68)

Q: Can a multiclassed fighter/magicuser
wear full plate armor?
Yes, multiclassed magic-users (not dualclassed)
may wear the best armor allowed
by their classes, However, only elves may
wear armor and cast magic-user spells (see
the Players Handbook, page 33, top of
second column).

Q: What multiclass options are open
to barbarians and cavaliers?

A: None, The barbarian subclass is open
only to humans, and humans are never
multiclassed characters. An elven or halfelven
cavalier (strictly speaking) cannot be
a multiclass character as such a combination
is never mentioned in the rules as a
possible combination; this also applies to
half-elven paladins. Human cavaliers and
paladins cannot be multiclassed, but in
theory could be dual-classed. However, a
dual-classed cavalier or paladin also seems
to run against the single-minded nature of
those classes. You might consider a restriction
on dual-classed cavalier types that
only the cleric class can be adopted as the
other class.
(139.68)

Q: What are the rules for singleclassed
demi-humans adding a second
class, or multiclassed
demi-humans adding another class?

A: There are none. Multiclassed demihumans
must be multiclassed from the
start; they can?t add more classes later.
(139.68)

Q: When can my fighter/illusionist
use weapon specialization? Are
there any penalties for doing so?

A: Your fighter/illusionist might not be able
to use weapon specialization at all. If he is
a multiclassed fighter/illusionist (and therefore
a gnome, the only race in which this
combination is allowed) he is not singleclassed
and cannot specialize.
If he is a dual-classed human he may
specialize only if he was an illusionist first.
If the character started play as an illusionist,
he could specialize in a weapon when
he began learning the fighter class, and
would not incur any penalty except that
he would have an illusionist?s hit points
(see the Players Handbook, page 33).
(139.68)

Q: At what level do multiclassed
spell-casters cast their spells? I
assume that the levels are cumulative,
so that a 7th-level fighter/7thlevel
mage would cast his spells at
14th level.

A: A multiclassed character?s levels are not
cumulative for any purpose. The fighter/
mage in your example casts magic-user
spells at 7th level. If the character were a
7th-level cleric/6th-level magic-user, he
would cast clerical spells at 7th level and
magic-user spells at 6th level.
(139.68)

Q: Do multiclassed characters get all
of the proficiency slots of all of their
classes? If so, are they free to use
any of their slots for any of their
classes?

A: Multiclassed characters have proficiency
slots for all their classes. All these slots are
not lumped together, however; they
remain separated by class. A fighter/thief,
for example, who chooses to attack as a
fighter suffers the fighter nonproficiency
penalty if he uses a weapon with which he
is proficient only as a thief. Likewise, the
fighter/thief may only back-stab with a
weapon allowed to the thief class.
(138.68)




BTW, for a multi-class character, the highest level and half of the second and third levels are added to discover effective level.
In such hase the uppermost range might apply, viz. 3rd level fighter, 3rd level thief, = 4.5 which falls into the uppermost rage above.

Cheers,
Gary
 

Armor:

Dragon Fire wrote:
Mr. Gygax, we are debating this in another thread:

Why are elven F/MU's (also F/MU/T's I imagine) and Rangers allowed to cast magic-user spells while wearing armor and other classes not?
Does this only apply to elven F/MU and not half-elf ones also?


That rule was to stifle complaints from Tolkienists about elves in the D&D game not being sper-human.
Half-elves were not given such a break.

cheerio,
Gary
 


dcs wrote:
gideon_thorne wrote:
I dunno if its accurate. But poke around on Page 16 of the AD&D 1e PHB and look under the strictures of Elves via multiclassing.
 

As I thought, it is not just elves but all "non-human and semi-human race characters who are multi-classed." Under "Fighter/Magic-user" on pp. 32-33 this is stated explicitly without reference to a particular character race (although it notes that "Elves and half-elves may be fighter/magic-users"). So Elves aren't an exception, as they are in 2e AD&D; they follow the same rule as everyone else. All multi-classed characters, no matter what their race, can use the most favorable armor according to their character classes, with the exception of multi-classed thieves, who can't perform thief functions in armor heavier than leather armor.

The fact is that only elven chain was allowed for castng of magic-user spells in my capmaign.
A multi-classed elf could manage to get away with wearing even plate armor and casting, but not thieving, but not a half-elf, or gnome.


Actually, whatever suits the DM and the player group works for me!

Cheers,
Gary

<confirm that is the full quote>
 

Multi-Class HP Bonus:


Bombay wrote:
Hey Gary,

Hope your feeling better, i've put a good word in with the man upstairs.

I was Curious how you would tally up a multilcass 1st level Ftr/Magic user whos Con is 18. 1's rolled for each. Would it be:

(1+1+4)/2 = 3
HD+HD+con/2

or

(1+1+4+2)/2= 4
HD+HD+Con+Con/2

Are you suppose to give the con bonus for each class? Or just the highest class? I have always played it as the 1st example, but the more and more I read it and think about it, I think it should be the 2nd example and give the con bonus to each class.
 


Howdy bombat!

Thanks, and all the prayers for me are truly appreciated.
I feel well enough, but the condition is there...

As for the Con  bonus, I would give it for both classes, the second example you state above.

Cheerio,
Gary
 
 


SemajTheSilent wrote:
O Worshipful One,

An AD&D question here...I know you're probably sick of them...but I'll ask anyway. ;)

In 1st edition, the rules for calculating HPs for multiclassed PCs are a little vague. Where does any adjustment for CON come into play at 1st level and gaining subsequent levels? For example:

1/1/1 C/F/MU with 18 CON. Is it:

(d8+d10+d4)+3 and then divide by three? Or...

[(d8+2)+(d10+4)+(d4+2)]/3?

In either case, how are CON bonuses handled with uneven level gain...which happens most of the time?

I appreciate any answer you give. 
 
 


Heh!

Spot on. I am truly bored with answering OAD&D questions, as the system is long gone from my purview.
Nonetheless, I shall oblige a fellow gamer desiring my input in reagrd to it.

Each HD and Con bonus is calculated separately, so "[(d8+2)+(d10+4)+(d4+2)]/3" is correct.

When a level is gained in one of the classes of the multiclassed character,
the HD and bonus are found,
then one-third of that total is added to the HP total of the character.
I always round down below .6, not .5...

Cheers,
Gary
 

uaintjak wrote:
Hello Gary, and welcome back! Hope you're feeling much improved.

On the off chance that you do feel better, I figure I'll make you feel worse by asking you an AD&D question 

I'm rereading your Gord novels and quite enjoying them (much more so than the first time I read them, actually), and I noticed that the cavalier Dierdre is mentioned as being a former cleric (so presumably you envisioned her as a character with two classes). Also, in Sea of Death, Eclavdra is mentioned as having a couple of half-drow minions, cavalier/magic-users.

I wondered if you included such multi-classes in your own game, and if so, how they worked out. I'm toying with the idea myself, but since you speak with the voice of experience, your input would be helpful.

<bold added>
 


Howdy!

While i was pretty liberal in allowing dual- and multi-classed PCs in my campaign, those characters mentioned in the Gord yarns were generally not even NPCs in it.
There are exceptions such as Obmi and Keek, as well as actual PCs such as Curley Greenleaf and Melf.

I played a half-orc cleric-assassin PC for sa brief time in Rob's campaign.

Having such PCs in a campaign shopuld cause no problem if the challenges they encounter are commensurate with their abilities.
Rob saw to it that my half-orc didn't survive very long...quite proper for such a villain that associated with a pack of like scoundrels.

Cheers,
Gary
 
 


Joe Maccarrone wrote:
Ooh, I'll chime in with a related question, as DA BEARS are down at the half... 

Would you (if running the adventure today) change the Drow nobles to cleric/cavaliers instead of cleric/fighters, to bring them in line with UA, or leave 'em as written?

I like the idea of Drow cavaliers mounted on lizards or nightmares! I'm not sure about calling them multi-classed cavaliers (considering the training demands of the cavalier class), but could easily conceive of those dark elves as dual-classed -- first training as cavaliers, then gaining their (usually higher) cleric levels.

Thank you, kind Sir... 
 


Back to DA BEARS!

Hi Joe,

Too bad that the only one on DA BEARS that showed up for the game yesterday against the Colts was Devin Hester 

Anyway, I would probably retain the bulk Drow male nobles as cleric/fighters and make Drow female nobles cleric/cavaliers.
I prefer keeping the males inferior thus to the Dark Elf females.

Cheers,
Gary

<bold added>
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Cias the Noble
5. How do you handle the attack/saving throw rolls for dual-classed humans?
I know the Oriental Adventures book said that a dual-classed human always uses the best table, but the earlier books do not mention anything about this;
I am coming to realize that some of the later AD&D books deviated from your original intent for the game on some issues.
On a related note, when a dual-classed or multi-classed fighter/thief attempts a backstab, do you roll on the thief attack matrix or the fighters?
Is the character restricted to using only weapons allowed to thieves when backstabbing?


I always allowed the most favorable saving throw number for dual/multu-classed PCs, just as is indicated in the OA book.

When a PC is acting in a way specific to one of his classes, the backstab you note being specific to the thief class, then the attack would be as a thief backstabbing.
the multi-classed fighter-thief can use all the weapos of both classes, but class specific actions performed might well be hindered or impossible if such weapons (or armor) normally excluded are there to interfere with them. For example, a dagger or short sword is about all that can be used when backstabbing, nit a long sword, as one needs to be up close and aim. attack unnoticed.

Cheers,
Gary
 
 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Melkor
Hi Gary,

I'm reading through the old AD&DPHB and DMG, and all these questions are popping up. I'll make this one a little less involved than my previous question.

I noticed that the DMG states that a Multi-Class character uses the "best value" of his classes on the Attack Matrix.....Is the same applied to Saving Throws ?
A multiclass character uses the best value between the two classes ?

Thanks!
 

Originally Posted by ScottGLXIX
Melkor, check the DMG, bottom left of p. 79,
"Multi-class characters, characters with two classes, and bards check the matrix for each class possessed, and use the most favorable result for the type of attack being defended against."
Scott
 


Hi Melkor

ScottGLXIX covered the question you had perfectly.
Indeed, the most favorable number is used by those PCs with more than one possible for attacks and/or saving throws.

Cheers,
Gary

<that specific quote (Case C) actually applies to monsters [sic], not classed PCs or NPCs>
 


Quote:
Originally Posted by tenkar
Gary, you're making me want to dig thru my closet to find my 1st Ed AD&D books.
Back in the day my players generally weren't looking to multi-class unless the group was small and they needed the flexiblity.


That is a good point indeed!
When only two or three players generally adventure it is typically necessary for them to play multiple PCs or else be multi-classed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tenkar
Ah well, it all went down hill with the 2nd edition anyway 


Now there's an observation with which I have no disagreement <paranoid>

Cheerio,
Gary
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Mouser

Good points here, Gary. I prefer level limits for demi-humans, and use either the PHB version or, depending on campaign and players, raise level limits for single-classed demi-humans by 2 but keep the multi-class level limits as is in the PHB. I can't recall when I came up with this rule, but I recently reread UA (which is where I originally though it was from) but the level limits there seem somewhat different (especially with all of the subraces added in). I think it was from a Dragon article you penned at some point, shortly before UA came out. You have any recollection of such an article by any chance?


Actually, I don't recall, but your idea of raising the level limit by two for a single-classed eemi-himan character is reasonable,
and upping it by another step would be acceptable is the character had exceptional stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Mouser
Anyway, as you said above, with no level limits demi-human races based on human mythology goes the way of the Dodo, to say nothing of fantasy literature models. I can't remember off hand any author who has demi-humans in control of their fantasy world settings. Even JRRT, whose elves were fascinatingly powerful in the early ages of Middle Earth, eventually gave way to the world of men. As an aside, I think many (the majority?) of D&D players think of JRRT when they think of elves. After reading Three Hearts and Three Lions and seeing the presentation of elves, dwarves and trolls that Poul Anderson has I think I have a better understanding of what you had in mind for D&D races (at least to some extent). Any other literary works influence you in this area? (And am I even right about it in the fiorst place?)

Gray Mouser


Indeed, I do not believe that having unlimited levels for demi-humans can support a humanocentric campaign.
without humanocentrism, there are no sources availabel to the GM to create his world setting.

As for the depiction of elves, I am not one who looks to Tolkien.
D&D elves are not super beings, not taller or generally more powerful than humans.
I used myth, legend, folklore, fairy tales, and authored fantasy such as Poul Anderson's works for inspiration in regards the paramaters of elves.
Of course, the varieties develped do reflect the Professor's work.
after all, I desired to have the game to appeal to his fans.

Cheers,
Gary
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Raven
And also not about arguably multiclassed characters like Conan? I can come up with a dozen characters from mainstream fantasy literature that are best represented by multiclassed combinations, and none of them are comic book superheroes.


Conan multi-classed? you must have read different REH yarns than I did.
Conan is an archetypical swords & sorcery barbarian, and his thievery was all by use of his brawn, superior reflexes, and savage abilities.
Besides fighting and stealing, what else could he do that is worthy of awarding another class?

Bah,
Gary
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenkar
Just an aside to the multi-class issue:

Multi-classing in the 3rd edition rules is much more powerful then 1st edition rules. 3rd edition characters get a total some of class traits, including HP and THACO (or BAB) and the flexibility of using class abilities from the multiple classes. 1st edition characters had reduced HP and THACO compared to others of their EX Point totals. This balanced the advantage of flexibility that multi-classing gave.

3rd edition is a game that runs at a higher power level, which appeals to the masses.

Reminds me of the movie Spinal Tap: "This one goes to 11"
 


Heh,

I'd describe the appeal as being to the munchkins and power-gamers, but that's just my opinion.

I can state with certainty that the number of 3E players is less than the number that played OAD&D in its heyday, c. 1983-5, so referring to "masses" is not correct.
"Masses" play computer seek & destroy games 

Cheers,
Gary



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